Ante Meridiem

I completely understand what youre saying. If yall are pushing like that I agree everyone needs to be prepared. My point is blizz made it harder for people to be prepared for your level of progression than in any previous expansion. I healed in a top 50 world guild in wotlk and I was in a top 50 and top 100 guild in wod before coming to amam, outside maintenance was never as time consuming as it is now even at the highest level of raiding.

Exorcus was doing 18 hour days in m+ dungeons before mythic EN to ensure their entire team had legendaries. Name another expansion that even had that as a possibility.

Sonick wrote:That's pretty harsh considering there are teams that raid the same amount of hours as you that are far better than you as well as teams that raid twice as many hours as you that are far worse. This game has never required the amount of hours outside of raid to stay viable as it has this expansion... Which is the point of the people referring to no lifers. The people upset about the Legion progression time requirement are upset because many of them have played for 10+ years and never had to spend such a ridiculous amou t of time outside of raids to stay competitive.

As much as I agree with J that it's been grindy in the past, this also holds true.

But as an example for reaching 54 before NH mythic release, Hikari, who only logs in for maybe 1 hour or 2 hours a day outside of raid times, (sometimes 3 because he does spot morning raids that are on farm with AM) only did his AP worldquests everyday or every few days (which is about 30minutes in total) did perhaps 2-3 mythic+ per week (sometimes pushing for more) and did raids on friday/saturday evenings, and reached 54 about 2 weeks before Nighthold even being released.

Obviously not everyone can log in every day to get the AP amounts that they need, but this was just an example.
My personal issue has nothing to do with the AP grind currently, in fact, I enjoy it. Just like J enjoys doing mythic+ all the time because he wants his rank 1 spot, I just enjoy doing mythic+ because it's enjoyable, repeatable, and there always deems a challenge when you want it in higher level keys. My issue is being the amount of gold needed per raids. I spent 3 days this week (about 4-5 hours each day) farming heroic dungeons for satchel queue and disenchanting all the epic items i got from said runs and Mythic+ I do occasionally just to make gold/blood of sargeras for consumables every week.

That is not even as much of a hassle as people had back in Vanilla/BC, but still pretty hell, since I have 0 gold and didn't get to abuse the garrison money since I quit the game after Wrath and came back at the end of WoD.

Sonick wrote:Exorcus was doing 18 hour days in m+ dungeons before mythic EN to ensure their entire team had legendaries. Name another expansion that even had that as a possibility.

18 hours in Dungeons for raid A Day is a bit much... I was in dungeons at least 20+ hours/week pre-Kara.

The top guilds have always spent a ridiculous amount of time to be top. This goes to Mag's point: even if they lessen the AP grind, there will be a grind to be a top 20 guild. Right now we have "people with a life" who essentially log on only for raid (~8hrs or less) . I can't remember an Xpac where you could raid end game content at the level we are seeking to in our goal statement with that kind of commitment. It's just not possible. Not now, not in the past and it won't be in ToS.

What is the point of getting your 54th trait after progression? To help you parse better on Farm? No! It is needed for progression. Whule Blizzard is currently admitting that the grind is too much, there will be a grind!

Legion didn't have the grind. TBC didnt have the grind. Vanilla didn't even really have a grind. Wrath was a bit grindy as well as Cata but no expansion required you to grind like this. AP and legendaries, no way.

This is the reason I stopped raiding. I couldn't hold that kind of grind 2-3 hrs a night plus raid nights sorry I have a toddler wife and another one on the way. If I have to choose to be competitive or spend time with my young family well my family is first and always will be.

I've raided every expansion since BC and I've never had this much issue with the grind. Even when my son was born I never had an issue with grinding to stay competitive. This expansion has a grind that if you choose to not log in you're behind. I don't feel that those that cannot log in should be penalized for it. I do however enjoy this expansion far more than the rest. Probably due to mythic plus. I can still enjoy the challenges of the game without devoting hours upon hours to this game.

The fact people are burning out from grinding rather than pushing progression is a clear sign something is majorly off with this expac compared to previous ones.

Stormstout wrote:I've raided every expansion since BC and I've never had this much issue with the grind.

I do however enjoy this expansion far more than the est. Probably due to mythic plus. I can still enjoy the challenges of the game without devoting hours upon hours to this game.

The fact people are burning out from grinding rather than pushing progression is a clear sign something is majorly off with this expac compared to previous ones.

Excellent points Storm! It is a different kind of grind (I'd argue different, not necessarily more). You and I enjoy M+s that feel challenging yet less grindy. And there is a problem with burn out due to the AP grind, which was the point of the OP.

I really miss raiding like unbelievably lol. If i was able to raid at the mythic lvl again id be ecstatic, but at the current time i just cannot. Which for me sucks major ass. Im hopen with the changes coming in 7.2 i might actually be able to get back to raiding -.- i miss it way to much lol

Yeah the AP is the biggest thing limiting me from jumping into Mythic raids. Even though I'm skilled and have experience, this GRIND is a wall in my way. Doing my best though! Interesting discussion, love reading it.

There's some interesting points here for sure. The AP farm also makes me feel burnt out, especially since I had to take care of my family a lot more and don't have the time to play steadily for the same amount of hours per day. Sometimes I can't log in for a few days, and I wish the grind wasn't so taxing for people who cannot dedicate many hours to the game outside of raids.

I have also felt what Storm is talking about. Being burnt out from the AP grind instead of progression. It's not even about the AP grind for me, it's about the stress factor surrounding it; the importance of doing this and that to stay relevant. It's all just a big stress factor to me personally.

I understand the feelings of the grind. As a heroic raider, I've actually liked that when i get on to play I'm going to get something. When I do daily quests, or run a couple instances I know I'm going to get AP or a chance at a legendary. It feels hella better then it did in cata, wotlk, draenor. All I got for my time in those expansions was gear that I would disenchant, and sometimes not even bother with that because the mats weren't worth shit. I think they are onto something with where the game is at. I'm not sure you are ever going to get rid of the min max people looking down on the non min max. Even in Mythic progression. It could probably be dealt with, by clear expectations. Each team member will be at this point by this date. Then there isn't the urgency to get all the way to the end as fast as possible. Maybe the balance of giving people enough meaningful stuff to do verses the consumption of content by the top ten percent will always be a never ending struggle.

Really the grind wasn't that bad. I'm 54 now and I didn't real go all in on it at all. I think people that got on everyday and forced themselves to grind out mythic plus dungeons made it a grind. I got my Ap in a lot of different ways. World quests, dungeons, raids and pvp. I think because I didn't try to grind it as fast as possible that it didn't stress me out. I know this sounds weird but I like the AP system.

How many of you that enjoyed or saw no problem with the grind played more than 2-3 hours a day (NOT including scheduled raids)?

My point is not that the grind is hard or even boring, my point is that regardless of how you go about obtaining ap, it is time consuming, arguably moreso than any required resource we have ever had, and a lot of great players just don't have that kind of availability. That does not make them a less skilled or even less committed player than those that do.

The only grind is from you putting pressure on yourselves to be 54 in the quickest time. Yes, there is an expectation that you are not still 35 or 40 or probably 45 if you are mythic raiding but I do not see a single team in this guild saying you have to be 54 by xx date etc.

YES. If everyone was, it would be much easier for progression but life isn't perfect and raiding and it's associated upkeep isn't either.

Many of us have challenges and reasons why we are slower than others in this guild but it's time to set yourself realistic goals and meet them and stop stressing about what you think is an expectation when it's not. If you have fun while doing it, it won't be a grind!

Edit: completely agree there too sonick. I'm about to hit 49 with limited playtime outside of raid. It is time consuming and I would rather do things like farm my consumables rather than grind the AP but there is light at the end of the tunnel where I'll be able to do that ( for a small time )

Numerical wrote:The only grind is from you putting pressure on yourselves to be 54 in the quickest time. Yes, there is an expectation that you are not still 35 or 40 or probably 45 if you are mythic raiding but I do not see a single team in this guild saying you have to be 54 by xx date etc.

YES. If everyone was, it would be much easier for progression but life isn't perfect and raiding and it's associated upkeep isn't either.

Many of us have challenges and reasons why we are slower than others in this guild but it's time to set yourself realistic goals and meet them and stop stressing about what you think is an expectation when it's not. If you have fun while doing it, it won't be a grind!

Edit: completely agree there too sonick. I'm about to hit 49 with limited playtime outside of raid. It is time consuming and I would rather do things like farm my consumables rather than grind the AP but there is light at the end of the tunnel where I'll be able to do that ( for a small time )

^ This.

I've not put any pressure on my raiders to be 54 before Nighthold nor is there a current requirement. That said, if you're sitting at 35 and not attempting to better yourself then you're a detriment to your team. Just play the game and you will progress. If you can only login to raid then maybe mythic raiding is not suited for you.