AP Grind...

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Bellarionna
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AP Grind...

Post#1 » 16 Feb 2017, 14:48

Artifact Power has been a hot topic lately, both around the community and within the development team. With Patch 7.2 on the horizon, introducing both new artifact traits and additional Knowledge levels, we have been reflecting on the way the system has unfolded during the first months of Legion, and evaluating changes based on the lessons we have learned thus far.

First off, a look back at where we started.

From the outset, Artifact Power was intended to serve two intertwined purposes: First, it offered max-level progression that was not entirely item-driven, along with choices and elements of character customization as players traversed their trait trees; second, it was meant to serve as a universally desired, consistent reward from all types of content.

In crafting the systems that delivered Artifact Power, we weighed the merits of hard caps versus a smoother system of diminishing returns. We had extensive experience with hard caps, through multiple past iterations of currencies like Valor Points and Conquest Points, and wanted to avoid several of the downsides of that approach. For example, a cap inherently feels like more of an expected quota, where missing a week or falling short of the cap puts you clearly, and potentially permanently, behind the curve.

Instead, as everyone knows, we settled on an open-ended system of diminishing returns. Without any hard caps on how quickly players could earn AP, it was essential to have some sort of limiting mechanism on the gap in power between players of different playstyles, and different levels of time investment. We accepted the admittedly complex design of Artifact Knowledge because it solved this problem, effectively reining in the size of this power gap. Players trying to progress past the expected artifact level for their Knowledge would run into those rapidly diminishing returns, while those who played less than that would have Knowledge as an accelerator to help them catch up to the cutting edge. When Emerald Nightmare was new content, while the average raider was at 20 or 21 points, the most dedicated might have been at 24 or 25 – a relatively modest gap.

Now, where things went wrong…

We feel that we made two major missteps with the Artifact Power system that increasingly manifested themselves as we got deeper into Patch 7.1 and 7.1.5. And both of them served to undermine that core goal of ensuring that the gap between players with different levels of time invested into the system could not grow too large.

First, the cost of ranks in the 20-point final trait remained relatively flat, as opposed to the rapid exponential scaling up to that point. This meant that someone who spent twice as much time gathering AP as I did would have roughly twice as many ranks as me. Instead of the 24 vs. 21 gaps we saw in Nightmare, a number of hardcore raiders entered Nighthold with 54 points, while others were just beginning that final progression and found themselves with nearly 10% less health and damage, equivalent to being almost a full tier of gear behind. Players who switched specs or characters along the way found themselves in a similar position. The power gap was larger than ever before, which created a sense of obligation and a number of negative social pressures that the system had previously tried to minimize. In short: We’re not at all happy with how this worked out.

A common suggestion is to simply reduce the amount of Artifact Power required to fully unlock the artifact in 7.2. This would not solve the underlying problem, but would rather reduce its duration while heightening its intensity, as competitive players sprinted to finish their Artifacts in order to be “ready.” But then we would inevitably tune around that completed power level, and other players would simply be playing catch-up the entire time. And in the long run, Artifact Power would not be serving its intended purpose of ongoing parallel progression. A capped-artifact player who goes a week without getting any item upgrades ends the week literally no stronger than before. Part of the value of the artifact, both for personal progression and guild progression, lies in ensuring that everyone is at least a bit stronger next week than they are right now, and a bit closer to overcoming whatever obstacle stands in their path. Our goal is for Artifact Power to always be of some interest as a reward, whether from a World Quest, or as a consolation prize when failing a bonus roll.

Instead, we are focusing on fixing the mistake of flat cost scaling at the end of the progression, and instead keeping the increases exponential throughout, while also strengthening Artifact Knowledge as a core pacing and catch-up mechanism. These changes should be visible in an upcoming PTR build.

This is done with the primary goal of reducing the power gap based on time investment, while preserving Artifact Power as an endgame reward that everyone values. If the leaders in Artifact Power were only a few points ahead of a more typical player, rather than crossing the finish line when most were just leaving the starting blocks, players with less time to commit would not be as disadvantaged in competitive activities. If a Warlock were choosing between having 48 points in a single spec or 44 points in all three specs if they’d split their efforts evenly, the barrier to playing multiple specs would be significantly reduced. We are still tuning the curve for 7.2 trait costs, but we’re currently targeting scaling such that someone who earns twice as much AP as me will have an artifact that’s only ~1.5% stronger; someone who earns four times as much AP as me should only be 3% stronger. On the whole, this should be a massive reduction in the power gaps we see in the live game today.

The second problem with our initial implementation was that repeatable sources of Artifact Power (Mythic Keystone dungeons in particular) dominated time-limited sources such as Emissary caches and raid bosses. The fact that a large portion of the community evaluates their Artifact Power needs using “Maw runs” as the unit of measurement is ample evidence of this failure. We very recently deployed a hotfix to increase AP earned from Nighthold in order to make raiding, with a weekly-lockout, better compare in efficiency to repeated Mythic Keystone runs. And in 7.2, we’re more thoroughly addressing this issue by adding a significant amount of AP to the weekly Mythic Keystone cache, while somewhat reducing (and normalizing based on instance length) the AP awarded by repeated runs. These changes are being made to narrow the gap in AP earning, and thus power, based on time investment.

All of the above changes are aimed at allowing players the freedom and flexibility to decide how they want to spend their time, and which goals they wish to pursue, while limiting the difference in power between players who arrive at different answers to those questions.


Sounds about right.
-------- Stormrage - Alliance
Bellarionna - 110
Fiachro - 100
Lytheriah - 100
Barlick - 100
Kunjal - 100
Lyzebel - 100
Euphus - 100
Veylla - 100
Anatou - 100
Shalla - 100
Maevissa - 100
Kazgru - 98
Zadey (90) / Annabark (92) - Retired
-------- Bleeding Hollow - Horde
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Mata
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#2 » 16 Feb 2017, 15:44

Good
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Kermit
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#3 » 16 Feb 2017, 16:02

I hope they actually get it right though. Its a tough thing to balance. Even those that hit a wall can still be alot stronger than 3% the way I see it.

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Magnifeye
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#4 » 16 Feb 2017, 17:44

Welcome to having specific goals to hit per AK level. This doesn't reduce the grind at all guys, it just makes it less impactful. This still means to raid mythic raiders need to hit goals at specific times.

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Bellarionna
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#5 » 16 Feb 2017, 19:52

Magnifeye wrote:Welcome to having specific goals to hit per AK level. This doesn't reduce the grind at all guys, it just makes it less impactful. This still means to raid mythic raiders need to hit goals at specific times.


Actually, what it means is someone at 54 and someone at 49 aren't miles apart like they are now.
-------- Stormrage - Alliance
Bellarionna - 110
Fiachro - 100
Lytheriah - 100
Barlick - 100
Kunjal - 100
Lyzebel - 100
Euphus - 100
Veylla - 100
Anatou - 100
Shalla - 100
Maevissa - 100
Kazgru - 98
Zadey (90) / Annabark (92) - Retired
-------- Bleeding Hollow - Horde
Selyndia - 90
Onetunn - 87

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Houtoku
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#6 » 16 Feb 2017, 22:00

... that's a really long way of saying "We done fucked up."
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#7 » 16 Feb 2017, 23:10

There aren't miles between someone at 49 and 54 though. That's only a 2% damage increase which can be unnoticied due to screwing up rotations or lag etc

If by miles, you mean AP amounts, it's about 70 dungeons between 49 and 54

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Magnifeye
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#8 » 17 Feb 2017, 01:02

Actually, what it means is someone at 54 and someone at 49 aren't miles apart like they are now.


That's 100% wrong and not at all what the post even targeted. Whatever AP is reachable by mythic raid open, all raiders need to be, this doesn't fix any of the grinding AT ALL for the mythic scene. The point difference SCALE wise in 7.2 is exactly the same as its current iteration on live, so your post solves itself like strut says. what a big difference is was casuals hitting 35 points and staying put, while mythic raiders hit 54 by nighthold opening week and were blowing people out of the water output wise, which was roughly 10% output. If you grinded minimally now and will do the same going forward, you'll still be behind where most mythic raiders will be going into raid. All that this change does is disincentivize people from farming earlier on, while backloading the AP farm and punishing those who put more time into the game (this is the good point considering time in game has skyrocketd this xpac)

What it does do on the other hand, is make off specs viable, and also for high end guilds, alts available for raids.

If you don't log on for a week, you're still 7 days behind on AP no matter how high the AK knowledge is scaled at, you still have to farm those dungeons, even if it takes you half the amount of time. In the long run, there isn't any difference to what there is now, especially since most of the weight on dungeons has been shifted out as they have actually DECREASED the amount of AP you get from dungeons. The only thing this type of system is incentivizing is back loading all of the AP grinding to the week or two before mythic with the highest AK possible.

BONUS: Maw is MUCH harder on ptr now, as they have buffed every boss fight significantly, and have made the trash count higher, so it is no longer an efficient farming method. Instead, what people have been talking about is farming arcway at an average of 25 minutes a run.

... that's a really long way of saying "We done fucked up."


The biggest thing they fucked up on was offspec scaling, and alt scaling, both of which they said they will be fixing. I'm still skeptical that the changes will do anything to affect mythic raider AP farming.

EDIT:
Just as a fun experiment, I made the AK knowledge scale to roughly 1M% more artifact power for AK 40 in 7.2. That's roughly 2x as much as they planned for currently. That cuts the max number of dungeons down to close to 170 "maw runs" once you hit that max knowledge. This of course doesn't account for other sources, especially the unknown amount from the weekly cache, but it by no means isn't a grind, considering you have to first reach that goal.

Lets say that tomb releases roughly 2 months after 7.2 drop, that's only AK 36. Of course if they do drop ToS 3 months after 7.2 (that's a stretch imo) we're looking at AP farming into the next raid still.

Anyway this is all theoretical, but I think the same general concept still holds throughout, we're still farming close to, or equally to what we are now. It will just come from different sources. If people think they can hold back on farming going into 7.2, I think you'll get a wake up call still (IF AND ONLY IF you consider mythic raiding having the highest traits possible going into raid week)

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Bellarionna
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#9 » 17 Feb 2017, 06:06

This is done with the primary goal of reducing the power gap based on time investment, while preserving Artifact Power as an endgame reward that everyone values. If the leaders in Artifact Power were only a few points ahead of a more typical player, rather than crossing the finish line when most were just leaving the starting blocks, players with less time to commit would not be as disadvantaged in competitive activities.


I guess this section was missed by most of you.
-------- Stormrage - Alliance
Bellarionna - 110
Fiachro - 100
Lytheriah - 100
Barlick - 100
Kunjal - 100
Lyzebel - 100
Euphus - 100
Veylla - 100
Anatou - 100
Shalla - 100
Maevissa - 100
Kazgru - 98
Zadey (90) / Annabark (92) - Retired
-------- Bleeding Hollow - Horde
Selyndia - 90
Onetunn - 87

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Tyronian
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#10 » 17 Feb 2017, 09:32

Bellarionna wrote:
Magnifeye wrote:Welcome to having specific goals to hit per AK level. This doesn't reduce the grind at all guys, it just makes it less impactful. This still means to raid mythic raiders need to hit goals at specific times.


Actually, what it means is someone at 54 and someone at 49 aren't miles apart like they are now.


I think what you mean is "Actually, what it means is someone who grinds for hours and someone who doesn't aren't miles apart like they are now."

The difference in power between someone at 54 traits and 49 traits won't be any different, from what I understand. It's that it will be much harder for some to be way way ahead in traits due to the AP levels scaling exponentially.

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Pretolkos
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#11 » 17 Feb 2017, 10:31

Completely off topic, but /wave Ty! I hope you're enjoying the expansion!

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Bellarionna
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#12 » 17 Feb 2017, 10:49

I guess, its a bit confusing... but what's happened this expansion thus far, is people with a life (work, school, family, kids, etc) are getting hosed. If not by purely struggling to keep up performance wise, we're also getting verbally abused by others (those with less real life demands) demanding we get to 54 faster... It's not that we're lazy or unwilling, we just have shit to do that takes precedence over a game or makes it impossible to play as much as others...

Now, those that can play 18-20 hours a day will have an advantage but not nearly that big of an advantage from those that can only play 3-5 hours a day.
-------- Stormrage - Alliance
Bellarionna - 110
Fiachro - 100
Lytheriah - 100
Barlick - 100
Kunjal - 100
Lyzebel - 100
Euphus - 100
Veylla - 100
Anatou - 100
Shalla - 100
Maevissa - 100
Kazgru - 98
Zadey (90) / Annabark (92) - Retired
-------- Bleeding Hollow - Horde
Selyndia - 90
Onetunn - 87

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Magnifeye
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#13 » 17 Feb 2017, 11:30

I think you missed the entire point of my post bell. It doesn't matter if you have less time to play, mythic is always tuned at the highest amount of AP you can reach BEFORE raid.

If you were behind on AP this patch, you'll be behind on AP next patch due to time constraints. So no, this doesn't fix any of the grinding woes of mythic raiders.

Also to touch on the advantage point, I also mentioned that in my long post: You're still behind people with more point than you no matter what, even if you're say, 5 points behind instead of 7-8 now.

As an example, look at the time wasted (as in no mythic NH kills, we do learn mechanics) on the middle bosses of NH due to output issues, compared to if people grinded prior to us reaching them, I think it would average out to about the same amount of time no matter what.

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Bellarionna
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#14 » 17 Feb 2017, 12:18

I get what you are saying, but I'm also reading the comment as that they aren't going to tune future dungeons to highest amount of AP possible... at least that's how I read it, but it is what it is.

The whole point of AP is to eliminate the need to "nerf" content once the best of the best kill it, and they're not happy with raid teams walking in with max AP.

Essentially, they want to make AP such a long and boring grind no one will be maxed at content release so everyone can grow together... they tried with AK, but it wasn't a big enough difference...

For example: You start a tier at 51, i start at 49... i could hit 51 before you crest to 52.. i totally understand you will 'always be ahead of me' but at the same time preventing people, like you, from max grind farming and smoking people who aren't consumed 20 hours a day in a video game.
-------- Stormrage - Alliance
Bellarionna - 110
Fiachro - 100
Lytheriah - 100
Barlick - 100
Kunjal - 100
Lyzebel - 100
Euphus - 100
Veylla - 100
Anatou - 100
Shalla - 100
Maevissa - 100
Kazgru - 98
Zadey (90) / Annabark (92) - Retired
-------- Bleeding Hollow - Horde
Selyndia - 90
Onetunn - 87

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Magnifeye
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Re: AP Grind...

Post#15 » 17 Feb 2017, 13:18

from max grind farming and smoking people who aren't consumed 20 hours a day in a video game


Not sure if you're over exaggerating to make your point or you actually believe this. People have the misconception that you had to have played a shit ton to have hit 54 traits in your weapon before to Nighthold, this is completely false. Five hours a week outside of raiding would have easily accomplished 54 traits by Nighthold.

EDIT:
I get what you are saying, but I'm also reading the comment as that they aren't going to tune future dungeons to highest amount of AP possible... at least that's how I read it, but it is what it is.


This is where most of the problem stems from on the case of if everyone is doing what they need to be doing to push mythic properly. I won't bring up weekend discussions since this is a guild post, but from my point of view, if people want to do mythic, they should be trying to maximize whatever they can going into a tier.

The whole point of AP is to eliminate the need to "nerf" content once the best of the best kill it, and they're not happy with raid teams walking in with max AP.


The blizzard post disproves this already, "First, it offered max-level progression that was not entirely item-driven, along with choices and elements of character customization as players traversed their trait trees; second, it was meant to serve as a universally desired, consistent reward from all types of content."

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