AP Grind...

[Magnifeye]

Anyway, this is getting into more of a discussion about what mythic raiding is considered to be from differing points of view. I still believe the grind will be the same going into ToS. I think this only impacts alts and offspecs.

[StrutAmari]

To add on top of the changes made to AP next patch, it actually incentives you even more-so to get high levels in your weapon, because, instead of having just paragon points i.e. 35-54 this patch, we're going to have new traits we can choose from which can bolster the strength of your damage/healing output or other abilities.

Example: For brewmaster monk, their main problem as a tank in mythic progression is damage output is lower than paladin druid warrior and DK, only beating DH in damage. In 7.2, there are new traits such as keg smash hitting twice, or increasing the damage of blackout kick by 30%, small things add up.

Or even more relevant things like energy generation, staying in meta longer, RAID BUFFS which are being introduced in 7.2 as a passive from certain specs and classes.

Also, there will be NEW paragon points just like 35-54 this patch, in 7.2 as well.

[StrutAmari]

Welcome to having specific goals to hit per AK level. This doesn't reduce the grind at all guys, it just makes it less impactful. This still means to raid mythic raiders need to hit goals at specific times.

Actually, what it means is someone at 54 and someone at 49 aren't miles apart like they are now.

I think what you mean is "Actually, what it means is someone who grinds for hours and someone who doesn't aren't miles apart like they are now."

The difference in power between someone at 54 traits and 49 traits won't be any different, from what I understand. It's that it will be much harder for some to be way way ahead in traits due to the AP levels scaling exponentially.

Nope. I meant exactly as I said. From a mythic POV though that 2% is huge and everyone should be aiming to get max. 2%x20 players adds up overall. Despite me saying that 2% could be negligable if you fuck up your rotation etc, in a mythic envrionment you are trying to reduce that factor as much as you can making the 2% in AP levels matter.
And more so with new traits next patch.

[Sonick]

I guess, its a bit confusing... but what's happened this expansion thus far, is people with a life (work, school, family, kids, etc) are getting hosed. If not by purely struggling to keep up performance wise, we're also getting verbally abused by others (those with less real life demands) demanding we get to 54 faster... It's not that we're lazy or unwilling, we just have shit to do that takes precedence over a game or makes it impossible to play as much as others...

Now, those that can play 18-20 hours a day will have an advantage but not nearly that big of an advantage from those that can only play 3-5 hours a day.

This is EXACTLY why a lot of serious raiders (with responsibilities) quit the game.

[Houtoku]

This is EXACTLY why a lot of serious raiders (with responsibilities) quit the game.

Having half your raid team telling you "Well you're not trying hard enough, it's so easy to get 54" when it's all the college kids with nearly unlimited time is also pretty fucking infuriating.

[Sonick]

^^^ exactly

I had other obligations as well that forced me to quit, but had legendaries and ap not been a thing, I would have found a way to stay.

[Pretolkos]

If it weren't for the Heroic Team, there's no way I could have maintained raiding all of these years. For me, it brought back the fun without the same level of time commitment.

I have nothing but respect for our Mythic Raid Teams. It takes great skill to do what you all do. I'm just glad I don't have to play if I don't feel like it, or if I don't have the time.

[Houtoku]

If it weren't for the Heroic Team, there's no way I could have maintained raiding all of these years. For me, it brought back the fun without the same level of time commitment.

I have nothing but respect for our Mythic Raid Teams. It takes great skill to do what you all do. I'm just glad I don't have to play if I don't feel like it, or if I don't have the time.

That's basically where I was when the Weekend Team started, which is why the continual pushes to add more days/time as we try more and more to emulate a hardcore team on a limited schedule rub me the wrong way.

[Ebolaviris]

My whole opinion of the AP grind all has to go back to What is the goal of your raid team. To quote Bell since he clearly states it in the application.

Raid Goals

This raid team has a goal of pushing Mythic content with minimal raid hours per week. We are trying to maintain server top 20 (first page of wowprogress) with an ultimate goal of trying to be server top 10 at just 6 hours a week!

If that is your goal you should be doing whatever you can as a team to achieve that goal. If that isn't your teams goal the AP grind is less important. Is there really a big difference between point 47 and 54. Not really. No. Will that extra few % between 20 people help. Yes. However player skill and determination will trump that anyday of the week.

AP=Raiding. Its and end goal. 54 point is always something to work for in your time playing the game. You can burn 20 hours a day grinding out AP just like you can raid 20 hours a week to kill mythic gul'dan. Can most of play at that level?. I know I can't.

Again to me it all goes back to my original point. What is your teams goal?

[Jaedaddy]

My whole opinion of the AP grind all has to go back to What is the goal of your raid team...

Excellent points!

This is mostly for WE Team:
If our goal is top 20 on server and pushing Mythic progression we need everyone on the team max AP by the time we push mythic content. We needed it before Nighthold and we will need it before Tomb of Sargeras.

As long as we keep the qualifier "top 20" and don't do the things we need to get that goal, we are failing. I am fine with changing our goals to something like: "Progression of end game content with minimal time commitment by dedicated players to the game and their class."

This post has many comments that assumes getting 54 means no life. I really don't care about excuses for not having your gear and weapon where it should be. We're 4 weeks into Nighthold and stalling on progression already. If you have a life, maybe you should be on a heroic team? or we should change our team goals?

<3 You Houty!!!

[Sonick]

That's pretty harsh considering there are teams that raid the same amount of hours as you that are far better than you as well as teams that raid twice as many hours as you that are far worse. This game has never required the amount of hours outside of raid to stay viable as it has this expansion... Which is the point of the people referring to no lifers. The people upset about the Legion progression time requirement are upset because many of them have played for 10+ years and never had to spend such a ridiculous amou t of time outside of raids to stay competitive.

[Ebolaviris]

Just to be clear I was using the Weekend Team Goals as an example. Not trying to throw stones at thier raiders.

[Sonick]

^^^

[Jaedaddy]

I raided end game content in Vanilla, BC and WotLK ... All required more time commitment. Anyone remember farming cloth for bandages? Spending hours just on run backs? 30 minute raid prep times while paladins set up PallyPower!?

The weekend (2 day a week) team basically has a third bonatory (bonus / mandatory) raid day. Now we are raiding 3 days a week, holding bosses back, wiping for a day on a boss that can't be killed due to lack of dps (even with perfect mechanics)... I am just confused... We can dedicate an extra night but think we can succeed without having minimal standards of knowing fights, being geared and AP maxed.

[Jaedaddy]

*as an example, I raided 20+ hours a week going into the Black Temple. Raid mats, gold, gear, etc. Took many hours besides that. Being able to see all of the content (less gear / mechanics perhpas) with less commitment is great! You really don't need 50+ traits to clear heroic.